What have you been doing ever since you left the forefront of Nigerian politics?
I have been facing my private business since I left the House of Representatives and I am also involved in politics. Politics is something that I cannot really bid farewell. Therefore, I am still in politics.
Have you met President Goodluck Jonathan before and what is your relationship with him?
Yes, I have met President Jonathan. When he started his campaign to contest the Presidency in 2011, he invited me to join his campaign and after discussing with him and agreeing on certain things, I joined the campaign and I played a very active role in it. Eventually, he won, and of course, he was sworn in as the President and we have been interacting.
What is your impression of his government?
My impression of him is someone who doesn’t carry people along. There is so much disconnect between him and the people of Nigeria. First of all, this is somebody who has never for once worked at the centre; he has been a provincial person all his life. He didn’t really know people around the country when he became the president. And what is worse is that he did not try to know people. He was cocooned in the Villa. He hasn’t got reach and this has been his failure. He has been caged and put under the impression that he is performing well; and that he is the best thing to happen to Nigeria since its creation. Today, he is seeing the result of all of these things. Nigerians have turned their backs on him because he cannot perform; he simply lacks the capacity to perform.
Was there a time he made overtures to you that you should return to the PDP?
I don’t think he and the party have the courage to ask me to come back; they know that they don’t like people like me. They like people who are “loyal”, who would submit to them. They like people who will see many wrongs and keep quiet; these are the kind of people they prefer.
Would you have returned if he had invited you?
It’s not likely.
Why?
They have not shown any sign that they are prepared to change for the better.
With your PDP background, don’t you see your romance with the APC as that of strange bedfellows?
I don’t. In politics, people from different backgrounds come together for the good of the society. It is not about self.
Why are you not into competitive politics again? Is it a case of once bitten, twice shy?
It is very sad that things have come to this situation. I have spoken about this repeatedly that our parties have become captives and most of us in the National Assembly of 1999 to 2003 have not been in competitive politics because while we were struggling to have democracy, certain people were struggling to capture our political parties, which they did; and because there has been no internal democracy, most of those who took charge of these parties have never allowed any election to take place within the parties. What they do is, year after year, during congresses, they just write names of ward executives, local government executives and state executives that will serve them and their purposes. Anytime anybody wants to stand for election, he has to pay these godfathers, who own the parties and I take exception to that because when I started in 1999, my experience was that the delegates and the ward executives came to me to tell me that they decided that I was going to be their candidate and that I should get somewhere and hide them. They wanted to hide themselves because people were going to them with money so that they could elect other people other than me. But because they didn’t want to do that, they thought they should go into hiding and I gave them a facility, where they stayed for five days until the primary took place. After the primary election, which I won because it was free and fair, they went back home. That was my first experience in politics. I never bargained with anybody to give me his vote and my second primary election in 2002 for the 2003 election was almost similar. The delegates came to me and told me that the state government wanted to take them away somewhere and they were promised money, motorcycles and plots of land, so that on the day of the election, they would vote for somebody, who the state government asked to contest against me. The delegates came and told me that just like we did in 1999, we should hide them somewhere so that agents of the state government would not locate them. We had to take them to Katsina. They spent a night in Katsina and came back the following day for the primary elections. And because of the state government’s attitude towards that primary election, it could not take place until midnight the following day because the chairman of the electoral committee, who was sent from Abuja, was detained in the Government House until an Assistant Director in the State Security Service discovered and took the man away. That was how the elections took place and of the 132 delegates, 131 voted for me. Left for the state government, they would announce that all the delegates voted against me. This was my experience. Since 2003, there was never a time that the party had any free and fair congress. That was why a lot of us found it difficult to be in competitive politics. It is not because the generality of the people do not support us, but the party has been tailored to serve a particular interest.
Your tenure as Speaker marked one of the most turbulent relationships between the executive and the legislature in the history of the country. Why?
This was so because we had philosophical differences. While in the legislature, we believed that politics should be developmental; the executive believed that politics should be about power. Because we had these differences, the stage was set for a clash between the legislature, particularly the House of Representatives, and the executive arm. That was what took place during the four years that I was Speaker. I thought that the key to the sustenance of democracy was the legislature and that the legislature must be defended in anyway and that was why I ensured that nobody messed around with the legislature and in the process, we almost impeached the President.
What were the basic reasons the House of Representatives, under your leadership, moved to impeach the then President Obasanjo in 2002?
Our reasons were cogent and verifiable, there were several constitutional breaches. The budget was not being implemented as well as a lot of other things, which are in public domain.
Why didn’t the impeachment move sail through?
We backed down because some elders were asked to come and exhort us to accepting to water down the impeachment. Eventually, we were persuaded not to continue, not because we were not right or because we were not sure we were going to succeed, but because these elders told us many things about the unity and stability of this country. Eventually, we heeded and I must admit that I regret listening to them because it as a result of us listening to them that Nigeria is in this mess today.
Chief Audu Ogbeh was said to be one of the elders who were on the delegation and he was said to have told you the possible implication of truncating the tenure of another person from the South-West barely a few years after the June 12 crisis. Is this true?
These were some of the reasons they advanced but I also knew that as of that time, the South-West wasn’t really supportive of Obasanjo but because of the interest of the establishment, such reasons were advanced.
How true is the claim that your action then was precipitated by monetary inducement than principle?
As far as I am concerned, I have never received money from anybody to sabotage the efforts of the House of Representatives that I led. I set a precedence and I made sure that the House was vibrant, robust and had focus. There was no way I could do anything that could undermine my own efforts, therefore whatever you hear in that direction is false.
The Independent Corrupt Practices and Other Related Offences Commission later went after you for various alleged offences. Did you see the hand of the former President in the 50-page petition filed against you?
Definitely, it was President Obasanjo who orchestrated the attempt by the ICPC to have my office and the House probed. The person who went to swear the affidavit was a known acolyte of Obasanjo and it was not the first time. He did the same to Anyim Pius Anyim. That was primarily Obasanjo’s intention when he was setting up the ICPC; his sole aim was to harass anybody who opposed him.
Do you think you would have escaped the hammer if the Senate and the House did not modify the Anti-corruption Act, which gave you immunity from prosecution?
The amendment of the ICPC Act did not stop the ICPC investigation. When they realised that the cases initiated against Anyim and I were politically motivated, they had to drop them. They were no longer interested in the cases because the ICPC knew that the cases were purely political.
How did you feel after you were ‘sacrificed’ by your party in order to prevent you from returning to the House of Representatives?
There are characters within the party that did not like the activities of some of us. Like I told you, we have philosophical differences with some of these characters. Politics, as far as they are concerned, is about power, which will enable them to steal the resources of the people as they like. And ours was to try and see a country on the path of development through good governance and decent political practice. That set the stage for us to go into conflict and, up till now, these people have not forgiven me. That is why I had these travails within my former party, the PDP.
Some of these people you are making veiled reference to are today in the APC. How do you contend with this reality?
The struggle continues; the journey through life is not easy and we are involved in a struggle to make our country better. I have adjusted my thoughts and my political thinking to accept that, with or without office, I should be a beacon of hope for my people. The struggle will continue; it doesn’t matter whether or not I am elected governor or president or whatever. Politics is not just for office; it is simply an opportunity to serve. We want to make sure that there is good governance in Nigeria.
It is said in some quarters that your political clout was not as strong as you thought and that by your actions in the House, you went against the power that made you, hence they brought you down. Do you agree with this?
Who are the powers that made me?
You tell us.
Nobody made me as such. My colleagues in the House of Representatives made me because they were the ones who elected me to be their Speaker. When I became Speaker, I served their best interest and if you ask my colleagues, they will tell you that I served them to the best of my ability. Honestly and sincerely, nobody outside the House of Representatives played any role in electing me to become Speaker. Anybody who tells you that he made me, whether it is Obasanjo or (Chief Tony) Anenih or whoever, is telling you lies.
Some have said the House was vibrant during your time. What do you think made it so?
It had to do with the leadership and also the membership. Don’t forget that I am a political science student. As a political science student, my area of specialisation is development studies. During my time, I knew exactly what I was doing. I knew exactly where I was going and I was lucky that the membership of the House consisted of so many intellectuals and they supported me. That was why the House was very vibrant and maybe because we were much younger, there was more exuberance. I must admit that we were really committed and we did so much compared to the Senate.
A school of thought holds that most defections shortly before elections are for personal political interests. Can same be said of yours?
I really will leave that to the people to judge, but my politics is always devoid of my personality. In a country where people go into and out of political parties at will, I don’t see why I should be an exception.
For a man who loves to be heard and felt, would your membership of the Board of Trustees of your new party satisfy your urge as a politician?
The Board of Trustees of a party is a platform where, in most cases, the integrity of the party is upheld. But what I think is that, whether I am a member of the BoT of the party or not, as a politician, wherever I am, what I must do, I will do. This is what I believe. A substantial number of those who run the APC are more tolerant of liberal politics than those in the PDP. That’s why I feel that there is more room here for someone to express oneself than the PDP.
What can you say you are bringing or have brought to your new party that will make you almost indispensable?
Indispensability is a subjective paradigm. What is important is all of us to be allowed to express ourselves in the party and, of course, I have added value to the party and I will continue to add value to it. Parties have a way of regulating themselves. The more internal democracy there is in political parties, the more fortune that party gathers over time. My intension is to use my experience and my profile in the party to expand the degree of democracy in the party. The greatest threat to the national security of Nigeria is the absence of internal democracy that is what people fail to understand. We must imbibe internal democracy; we must because not having it has disastrous consequences on our polity and our society.
Chief Audu Ogbeh, Abubakar Rimi and you left the PDP for the Action Congress in 2005 but returned to the PDP in 2007. How long do you intend being in the APC?
I just joined this party and I intend to help build it to be the party of choice for Nigerians and a good example to others across this continent. My main concern is internal democracy. I want to see a situation where any Nigerian who has the endowment will be allowed to become whatever he wants to become, this is what I know. They issue of how long I will remain in the party does not arise.
Why couldn’t you clinch the Kano State Action Congress ticket for the Kano State governorship slot in 2007?
I did not contest; I just intended to contest. I bought the expression of interest form. What followed was that a certain politician did not want me to be governor of Kano State for reasons best known to him. Because of the way and manner our parties nominate people to become whatever, I decided not to contest. What destroyed the AC in Kano was my withdrawal from the race. That was why the party did not win and (former Vice-President) Atiku Abubakar did not win Kano also.
Have you forgiven members of the defunct Action Congress, led by Atiku, who are now part of the APC, for allegedly denying you the Kano State governorship ticket in 2007?
It was not Atiku who did that to me, even though he did not talk to them because he thought if he talked to them, they were not going to contribute towards his election. As far as I am concerned, I don’t nurse grudges against people. I believe that whatever God wants any person to become, he becomes. When I became Speaker of the House of Representatives, I never asked anybody to help me become Speaker; it was my colleagues who asked me to come and lead them because, as they put it, they saw no hope in continuing to support my predecessor. They mobilised and elected me. I never campaigned; it was God’s will that I became the Speaker, so if God wants to make me anything, he will make me, despite the discouragement of anybody.
How does it feel being one of the several founders or foundation members of the PDP who have left the party for one reason or the other?
This is a very unfortunate development in our polity. It is very sad the way these things are happening in Nigeria and it’s a sad commentary on our polity. Good work must be recognised, rewarded and even compensated and people should not bring about noble things only to have a sad certificate. Obasanjo tried to disband the BoT of the PDP during the first anniversary of the PDP in 2000; it was my intervention that prevented him from doing that. The BoT then consisted of all the founding fathers of the party but during the time he was President, he frustrated as many of them as possible out of the party and the presidents after him, including Jonathan.
What are the chances of your party in the forthcoming polls?
The APC has the best chance to win the elections in the sense that Nigerians all over the country are yearning for change. They don’t see any hope of Nigeria getting anywhere under the leadership of Goodluck Jonathan. His presidency is very uninspiring; it has no colour and he lacks the competence and capacity to run this country. More than any time, the opposition party has the best chance to win this election because it has been able to garner support from all parts of the country.
